ศาลาชุมนุม

[ucladude1]

I remember a loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time ago I saw a list of the various tenses (on this website, I think) that had A LOT of examples....

However, I am unable to find that list now....

Can you help?

[David and Bui]

Are you referring to this listing? http://www.thai-language.com/id/589994

[Thomas]

Are you referring to this listing? http://www.thai-language.com/id/589994

David,

off topics (tense): The first sample sentence in the list quoted by you

"คุณขับรถเป็นไหมคะ"

is translated as

"[spoken by female] "Can you drive a car?""

Saying neither right nor wrong but while reading it I was surprised and thought:

Why this is not คุณขับรถได้ไหมคะ ?

I would like to add, although it makes the question more complicate, that e.g. in Italian you have two types of 'can', which are sapere and potere. Although not grammatically entirely correct, the 'sapere version' of can needs that you have learned this ability prior whereas the potere version of can is asking for a permission. E.g.: It is not: Non posso nuotare - but: Non so nuotare for 'I cannot swim'. In the context of a car 'Posso guidare?' means: Would you be so kind give me they key/your permission to drive the car? Non so guidare means simply that 'to drive a car' was never learned. If the person would drive, an accident would happen for sure.

My quesions are:

1. คุณขับรถได้ไหมคะ also correct by grammar?
2. Is there a difference in-between คุณขับรถเป็นไหมคะ and คุณขับรถได้ไหมคะ? And if so: Which?

[David and Bui]

Great question, Thomas. Thai actually has three auxiliaries to express "ability" or "potential", ได้, ไหว, and เป็น.

The word ได้ indicates "possibility", "ability", and "permission". The word เป็น means "the ability acquired by practice". The word ไหว means "the physical or mental ability to carry out an activity."

"เดินต่อไปไม่ไหว" (I just can't walk any further.)
"ผมขับรถไม่เป็น" (I don't know how to drive.)
"วันนี้ไปไม่ได้ พรุ่งนี้จะไปได้" (I can't go today, but tomorrow I can.)

So, in the context of questions involving driving a car, the implications are different:

"คุณขับรถเป็นไหมคะ" ("Do you know how to drive a car?")
"คุณขับรถได้ไหมคะ" ("Do you have permission to drive the car?" or "Can you drive [instead of me]?")
"คุณขับรถไหวไหม" (Do you feel well enough to drive?)

[Thomas]

Great question, Thomas. Thai actually has three auxiliaries to express "ability" or "potential", ได้, ไหว, and เป็น.

...

Great answer. Thx a lot!

[Rick Bradford]

Thai actually has three auxiliaries to express "ability" or "potential", ได้, ไหว, and เป็น.

The word ได้ indicates "possibility", "ability", and "permission". The word เป็น means "the ability acquired by practice". The word ไหว means "the physical or mental ability to carry out an activity."

I've always worked on the principle that there are six ways to say "can" in Thai.

In addition to those three above, there are:

4) ออก - "the ability to figure out an answer".

แก้ปัญหาไม่ออก - I can't (figure out how to) solve the problem

5) ลง - used in the negative to mean "can't bring oneself" to do something

ฉันกินข้าวไม่ลง - I can't (bring myself to) eat [because of worry, sadness, etc]

6) สามารถ - the (written only?) auxiliary that comes before the main verb and is finished off with ได้

Taken all together, they make up the Six Cans of the Thai language.

Or are these extra definitions stretching the idea of an auxiliary verb too far?

[David and Bui]

Excellent point, RIck. See, for example, the listing at http://www.thai-language.com/id/590260

[Rick Bradford]

The question then could arise, which of those (at your link) would be regarded as true auxiliaries, and which as just constructions in the Thai language.

คิดไม่ถึง - to not anticipate, to have not been able to foresee

Then again, trying to pigeonhole Thai words into English categories is probably one of those unprofitable cross-language discussions...

[Thomas]

Then again, trying to pigeonhole Thai words into English categories is probably one of those unprofitable cross-language discussions...

Rick, I would like to repeat that I found the answer of David on my original (off topic) question great. I would like to stress that I did not use the term auxillary.

The question how many possibilities exist in Thai to say 'can' could be raised as well in the variation how many possibilities exist in Thai to say Italian sapere and Italian potere. The resulting lists would be meaningless, or, better, create longer lists each in a Thai-Italian dictionary.

I understand your list but I would be interested in your criteria for "Thai auxilliaries".

E.g.: "4) ออก - "the ability to figure out an answer".

แก้ปัญหาไม่ออก - I can't (figure out how to) solve the problem"

'Auxilliary' as in "โป่งออก", or แก้ออก?

Criteria: Position of auxillary? Position of negation? Substitutability by ได้, ไหว, เป็น? แก้ปัญหาไม่ได้?

[David and Bui]

Great question about auxiliaries in Thai. For an academic treatment of this subject, see http://sealang.net/sala/archives/pdf8/i ... status.pdf .

Here is another paper: http://arizona.openrepository.com/arizo ... sip1_m.pdf