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Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Vowel & consonant graphemes (letters), syllables, and orthography

Moderator: acloudmovingby

Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Ray23 » Tue May 26, 2015 9:58 am

กลยุทธ is pronounced gon-la~yut is there a rule that I don't know about or is this just an exception to the cluster rules.
Because we are dealing with a true cluster here กล.
However there is a vowel O instead of a gl sound.
I'm puzzled by this word and hope someone here knows why this happens in Thai.

Thank you
Ray23
 
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Tue May 26, 2015 10:23 am

Ray23 wrote:กลยุทธ is pronounced gon-la~yut is there a rule that I don't know about or is this just an exception to the cluster rules.
Because we are dealing with a true cluster here กล.
However there is a vowel O instead of a gl sound.
I'm puzzled by this word and hope someone here knows why this happens in Thai.

Thank you

Without too much thought, I would say that the reason I didn't recognise it as what they call a cluster is that there is no vowel following it.
Tgeezer
 

Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Ray23 » Tue May 26, 2015 11:17 am

There are many words that don't have a vowel after this cluster but then it's still a cluster with an unwritten O vowel.
However with all those words it is clear that the cluster is followed by an O vowel because there is a consonant at the end.
Examples กลม or กลบ.
The only thing I can think of is that กลยุทธ has a ยุ and that wouldn't work with an O vowel.
After 5 years of studying this language it still keeps throwing curve balls at me ;)

Thanks for your input
Ray23
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby David and Bui » Tue May 26, 2015 12:58 pm

Actually, the RID shows the pronunciation to be "กลยุทธ์ [กนละ-]" or "กน-ละ-ยุด." This means that the first syllable is not a cluster at all, but the ordinary noun กล meaning "mechanism" or "machine". The second syllable ยุทธ์ means "war" and the combination means military strategy or tactics.

In combination, the final consonant of the first syllable is replicated to create a newly sounded syllable. However, in ordinary conversation, Thais tend to drop the final "n" sound of the first syllable so that the word sounds like "กะ-ละ-ยุด".
David in Houston
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Ray23 » Tue May 26, 2015 1:15 pm

But how do Thai know when it is a cluster and when it is the word กล (mechanism)?
Maybe they just pick this up like we know that certain words are pronounced differently even though they are written the same.
Example I read this book yesterday is pronounced red not read. The context forces us to use the right pronunciation.

Thanks for the explanation.
Ray23
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:15 pm

Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby monkeypete » Tue May 26, 2015 2:08 pm

Hi There,

I would like to help but could you please explain more what does 'cluster' mean in this context?
monkeypete
 
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby David and Bui » Tue May 26, 2015 2:17 pm

monkeypete wrote:Hi There,

I would like to help but could you please explain more what does 'cluster' mean in this context?


See the discussion at http://www.thai-language.com/ref/double-consonants .

Clusters in Thai mean อักษรควบ, อักษรคำควบกล้ำ, อักษรควบแท้, อักษรควบไม่แท้ and the like.
David in Houston
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby David and Bui » Tue May 26, 2015 2:21 pm

Ray23 wrote:But how do Thai know when it is a cluster and when it is the word กล (mechanism)?
Maybe they just pick this up like we know that certain words are pronounced differently even though they are written the same.
Example I read this book yesterday is pronounced red not read. The context forces us to use the right pronunciation.

Thanks for the explanation.

My answer is that in general it is difficult to know unless you have learned the vocabulary item. There is no overt indication as to whether a certain combination of consonants constitutes a cluster or an element of a combined word. However, I guarantee that after a while you will be able to recognize these phenomena and make a good guess as to how a word should be pronounced with a high degree of probability.
David in Houston
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby monkeypete » Tue May 26, 2015 2:56 pm

Hi Ray23,

For cluster, I could see 2 scenarios (maybe more)

1. When there is สระ (not sure it is 'vowel' in English) uses with "กล". For example, กล้า, ปลา, ไกล

2. Or it can be spelling alphabet after "กล". The spelling alphabet mostly 1 single alphabet. For example, กลม, กลบ, กลด

----------------------

For combined words, you will see that you can separate them into their own word like example below.

กลลวง (กล + ลวง), กลศาสตร์ (กล + ศาสตร์), กลไก (กล + ไก)

----------------------

To be honest, I just realized that when I try to look at Thai language from foreigner's eyes, it is very complex. This is because there is no fixed pattern and there are many components.
monkeypete
 
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby David and Bui » Tue May 26, 2015 4:15 pm

In fact there is spelling ambiguity involving Thai consonants which confuses those who are not familiar with the words. For example

กลวง could be pronounced "kluang" or "kon-wong"

กลอง could be pronounced "klong" or "kon-ong". However, when tone marks are added, the pronunciation becomes clear. Thus, กล้อง and กล่อง can only be single syllable words with an initial consonant cluster.
David in Houston
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