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Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Vowel & consonant graphemes (letters), syllables, and orthography

Moderator: acloudmovingby

Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Pirin » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:04 am

Tgeezer wrote:The vowel in สบาย is describes as กึ่งเสียง as I remember. Thai consonants all need , which is why I suppose is described as a vowel, but is not said สอ where it leads (what English calls part of a 'cluster') but สะ . We are supposed to be able to distinguish between สะดวก and สบาย not say สดวกสบาย.
On the question of the vowel แอ, แท็ปแล็ต is how Tablet, the I pad, is described. Should we pronounce it 'teblet', 'tablat'?
Would tablet sound too English?


สะดวก is a Thai word having two syllables.
สบาย is a cluster. It is derived from a Pali word ‘สปฺปาย’.
เสนาะโสตเสียงสุนทรีย์มีสรรค์สร้าง ลิขิตทางวางบรรจบสบสองเรา
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Richard Wordingham » Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:45 am

Pirin wrote:สะดวก is a Thai word having two syllables.
สบาย is a cluster. It is derived from a Pali word ‘สปฺปาย’.

How do you know you aren't just repeating false statements about the phonetics? What abut words like เปรียญ? Reliable and accurate statements about the phonetic structure of Thai words seem surprisingly hard to come by.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:25 am

Richard Wordingham wrote:
Pirin wrote:สะดวก is a Thai word having two syllables.
สบาย is a cluster. It is derived from a Pali word ‘สปฺปาย’.

How do you know you aren't just repeating false statements about the phonetics? What abut words like เปรียญ? Reliable and accurate statements about the phonetic structure of Thai words seem surprisingly hard to come by.


I am only guessing but I suspect that if you have a good fundemental knowledge of Thai the RID explains everything. eg. สดวก lacks อะ in the spelling because it is derived from Pali. เปรียญ seems to be derived from Pali so perhaps does not show อะ . Could mean "Pali medal" couldn't it ? In that case something of the word บาลี might need to be retained.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Richard Wordingham » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:24 am

Tgeezer wrote:eg. สดวก lacks อะ in the spelling because it is derived from Pali.

There is no such word as *สดวก, so I cannot interpret what you are saying.
Tgeezer wrote:เปรียญ seems to be derived from Pali so perhaps does not show อะ .

Pali origin does not preclude *ปเรียญ".
Tgeezer wrote:Could mean "Pali medal" couldn't it ?

I take it you mean 'medial', in a sense that makes most sense for monosyllables.

The Pali original is ปริญฺญ, with abstract noun ปริญฺญา, which corresponds to Sanskrit ปริชฺญา. Consequently, there is nothing to do with a "Pali medial".
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:07 am

Richard Wordingham wrote:
Tgeezer wrote:eg. สดวก lacks อะ in the spelling because it is derived from Pali.

There is no such word as *สดวก, so I cannot interpret what you are saying.
Tgeezer wrote:เปรียญ seems to be derived from Pali so perhaps does not show อะ .

Pali origin does not preclude *ปเรียญ".
Tgeezer wrote:Could mean "Pali medal" couldn't it ?

I take it you mean 'medial', in a sense that makes most sense for monosyllables.

The Pali original is ปริญฺญ, with abstract noun ปริญฺญา, which corresponds to Sanskrit ปริชฺญา. Consequently, there is nothing to do with a "Pali medial".

As
I didn't say that I had a good fundamental knowledge of Thai, in fact mixing up สบาย and สะดวก proves that I don't, I was just suggesting that there are those who do. The members of the RID almost certainly do and to them the phonetics must make perfect sense, if only as an exception to one rule or other.
I didn't mean medial by the way, I just noticed that เรียญ is similar to เหรียญ!
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Richard Wordingham » Thu Jan 12, 2017 7:52 pm

Richard Wordingham wrote:
Tgeezer wrote:เปรียญ seems to be derived from Pali so perhaps does not show อะ .

Pali origin does not preclude *ปเรียญ".

Actually, the age of the word means the tones would be that of ปเหรียญ. Now, a Pali origin precludes the addition of a consonant, so we are forced to use the spelling เปรียญ to get the right tones. *ปะเรียญ would have different tones, and that forces the lack of อะ.
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