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Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Vowel & consonant graphemes (letters), syllables, and orthography

Moderator: acloudmovingby

Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby monkeypete » Tue May 26, 2015 4:48 pm

David and Bui wrote:In fact there is spelling ambiguity involving Thai consonants which confuses those who are not familiar with the words. For example

กลวง could be pronounced "kluang" or "kon-wong"

กลอง could be pronounced "klong" or "kon-ong". However, when tone marks are added, the pronunciation becomes clear. Thus, กล้อง and กล่อง can only be single syllable words with an initial consonant cluster.


I agree with you. Technically, it can be pronounced in 2 ways as you mentioned. For Thais, they will know that "Kon-wong" has no meaning if this word stays alone. Anyway, I think there may be some words that can have meaning for both pronounciation.

By the way for "กลวง" as "kluang", "" in this case is vowel alphabet. It is the shorten form of -ัว.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Pirin » Tue May 26, 2015 5:10 pm

Ray23 wrote:กลยุทธ is pronounced gon-la~yut is there a rule that I don't know about or is this just an exception to the cluster rules.
Because we are dealing with a true cluster here กล.
However there is a vowel O instead of a gl sound.
I'm puzzled by this word and hope someone here knows why this happens in Thai.

Thank you


I wonder if you came aross any article explaining
the characteristics of multisyllabic Thai words formed according the rules of other languages
or
those of multisyllabic Thai words of Pali or Sanskrit origin.

Please have a look at the explanation in the following link, it gives you a bit of the characteristics to remember.

Thai Romanization table
Word Division
www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/romanization/thai.pdf
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Ray23 » Tue May 26, 2015 5:36 pm

Thanks for the pdf Pirin.
I think we can say as soon as a Thai word has some influence from another language the rules become a bit harder to understand.
And sometimes there are no rules :D
Thanks everybody for your input I really appreciate it.
Sometimes I wonder if there will be a day I can read Thai like any other language I can read.
Time will tell.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Wed May 27, 2015 1:04 pm

David and Bui wrote:Actually, the RID shows the pronunciation to be "กลยุทธ์ [กนละ-]" or "กน-ละ-ยุด." This means that the first syllable is not a cluster at all, but the ordinary noun กล meaning "mechanism" or "machine". The second syllable ยุทธ์ means "war" and the combination means military strategy or tactics.

In combination, the final consonant of the first syllable is replicated to create a newly sounded syllable. However, in ordinary conversation, Thais tend to drop the final "n" sound of the first syllable so that the word sounds like "กะ-ละ-ยุด".

Think that กล means 'artifice' กลยุทธ์ therefore should mean 'stratagem' : (an) artifice, trick(ery) device(s) for deceiving the enemy.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Pirin » Thu May 28, 2015 12:57 am

Tgeezer wrote:
David and Bui wrote:Actually, the RID shows the pronunciation to be "กลยุทธ์ [กนละ-]" or "กน-ละ-ยุด." This means that the first syllable is not a cluster at all, but the ordinary noun กล meaning "mechanism" or "machine". The second syllable ยุทธ์ means "war" and the combination means military strategy or tactics.

In combination, the final consonant of the first syllable is replicated to create a newly sounded syllable. However, in ordinary conversation, Thais tend to drop the final "n" sound of the first syllable so that the word sounds like "กะ-ละ-ยุด".

Think that กล means 'artifice' กลยุทธ์ therefore should mean 'stratagem' : (an) artifice, trick(ery) device(s) for deceiving the enemy.


Because กลยุทธ์ is basically used in formal context, its equivalent seems to be the 'stratagem' and 'ruse' (of war).

The military seems to choose the word "maneuver" for " กลยุทธ์ ". This might be related to Napolèon Bonaparte’s "Manoeuvre De Derrière".

RID:
กล กล- [กน, กนละ-] . การลวงหรือล่อลวงให้หลงหรือให้เข้าใจผิดเพื่อให้ฉงนหรือเสียเปรียบ เช่น เล่ห์กล, เล่ห์เหลี่ยม เช่น กลโกง; เรียกการเล่นที่ลวงตาให้เห็นเป็นจริง ว่า เล่นกล; เครื่องกลไก, เครื่องจักร, เครื่องยนต์, เช่น ช่างกล ว. เช่น อย่าง เหมือน เช่น เหตุผลกลใด เคลือบแฝง เช่น ถ้าจำเลยให้การเป็นกลความ.

ยุทธ-, ยุทธ์ [ยุดทะ-] . สงคราม, การรบพุ่ง. (. .)
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby monkeypete » Thu May 28, 2015 4:37 pm

Additional Info.

กลยุทธ์ can also be used in other contexts (not only military) as well.

For example: กลยุทธ์ทางการตลาด = Marketing Strategy
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Thu May 28, 2015 6:06 pm

monkeypete wrote:Additional Info.

กลยุทธ์ can also be used in other contexts (not only military) as well.

For example: กลยุทธ์ทางการตลาด = Marketing Strategy

And sadly another Thai word bites the dust!
กลยุทธ์ทางการตลาด literally means 'cheating'! :lol:
Tgeezer
 

Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby monkeypete » Thu May 28, 2015 9:46 pm

Tgeezer wrote:
monkeypete wrote:Additional Info.

กลยุทธ์ can also be used in other contexts (not only military) as well.

For example: กลยุทธ์ทางการตลาด = Marketing Strategy

And sadly another Thai word bites the dust!
กลยุทธ์ทางการตลาด literally means 'cheating'! :lol:


Hi tgeezer,

I know that this is web site about learning Thai but just would like to know. What is ''bite the dust" and the whole sentence you wrote mean? :D

I never hear this idiom before. :D
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Fri May 29, 2015 7:14 am

monkeypete wrote:
Tgeezer wrote:
monkeypete wrote:Additional Info.

กลยุทธ์ can also be used in other contexts (not only military) as well.

For example: กลยุทธ์ทางการตลาด = Marketing Strategy

And sadly another Thai word bites the dust!
กลยุทธ์ทางการตลาด literally means 'cheating'! :lol:



Hi tgeezer,

I know that this is web site about learning Thai but just would like to know. What is ''bite the dust" and the whole sentence you wrote mean? :D

I never hear this idiom before. :D


To bite the dust is from Holywood Cowboy films where when someone is shot they fall down, normally face down in the street which in Holywood's films was always earth (ดิน) or dust, so their teeth were close to the dust. They have bitten the dust, (dead).
Another word 'biting the dust' is a word's meaning being killed; to kill a word by removing its meaning.
To call a stratagem a strategy is correct, but a ' stratagem' is a deceptive strategy, to describe a simple strategy, ie. 'marketing strategy' as a กลยุทธ์ทางการตลาด is to widen the meaning of กลยุทธ์ , effectively killing the word.
This happens all the time with languages and words change; not a problem with Thai which can return to using ล่อลวง อุบ่าย เลห์ etc. my complaint is more about the manner in which Thai merges with English incorrectly and makes understanding Thai so difficult.

Edit: I can't imagine that a native Thai speaker can look at a word like กลยุทธ์ and not see the word กล, this could explain a breakdown in communication when an Englishspeaker is being perfectly honest in saying 'strategy' and the Thai, seeing the Thai translation thinks that he is not!
Tgeezer
 

Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Thomas » Fri May 29, 2015 9:17 pm

To be honest, in 'กล' I do not see a 'cluster' at all. Rather, two consonants. Is PaliSanskrit for nearly sure.

Thus, kalayuttha, or similar pronunciations. kalayuthadha or so.
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