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Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Vowel & consonant graphemes (letters), syllables, and orthography

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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Thomas » Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:34 pm

Ray23 wrote:กลยุทธ is pronounced gon-la~yut is there a rule that I don't know about or is this just an exception to the cluster rules.
Because we are dealing with a true cluster here กล.
However there is a vowel O instead of a gl sound.
I'm puzzled by this word and hope someone here knows why this happens in Thai.

Thank you


I do not know rules for clusters. Why you ask for them?

The rule for the prefix กล- reads as follows:

กล; กล- /กน; กน-ละ-/
Last edited by Thomas on Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Fri Oct 28, 2016 12:08 am

That was jolly interesting.
One point which I think is true, is that ,, can only be said together with the leading consonant when the tongue is not involved in pronouncing the first consonent. สร้าง >ส้าง or สะราง but we know that it is ส้าง .
แสลง >slang is actually salang with a very short 'a' .Probably because 'beautiful Thai' seems to like its consonants อะ is said กึ่งเสียง (half sounded) although Thai speakers say 'slang' in English when practised.
There is a table stipulating which of ,, can be merged with which leading consonants but it shouldn't be necessary to learn it.
eg. ส ฟ with none, only with , with and , with all three.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Richard Wordingham » Sun Nov 06, 2016 5:54 pm

Tgeezer wrote:There is a table stipulating which of ,, can be merged with which leading consonants but it shouldn't be necessary to learn it.
eg. ส ฟ with none, only with , with and , with all three.

And indeed, the authors of the RID do not heed it. They give pronunciations starting with the true /sr/ and /fr/ clusters.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Thomas » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:29 pm

Richard Wordingham wrote:And indeed, the authors of the RID do not heed it. They give pronunciations starting with the true /sr/ and /fr/ clusters.


And not to forget the famous true /br/ cluster as in boridge (บริดจ์ /บฺริด/ {English: bridge})
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Thomas » Thu Jan 05, 2017 9:42 pm

Tgeezer wrote:แสลง >slang is actually salang with a very short 'a' .


According to my poor knowledge of this problem แสลง [สะ-แหฺลง] is a Khmer but not an English loan.

And, more important for the problem of true and semi-half-kohok clusters:

Do Thais really need to put in an (a quarter to half long) /a/ into the English loan สแลง [สะ-แลง] in order to pronounce it like proper English?
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:46 am

Thomas wrote:
Tgeezer wrote:แสลง >slang is actually salang with a very short 'a' .


According to my poor knowledge of this problem แสลง [สะ-แหฺลง] is a Khmer but not an English loan.

And, more important for the problem of true and semi-half-kohok clusters:

Do Thais really need to put in an (a quarter to half long) /a/ into the English loan สแลง [สะ-แลง] in order to pronounce it like proper English?


I think so because the tongue has to move from the forward from 's' to 'l' and in doing so produces "a". Try saying any other vowel, solang sulang selang silang.
Actually the conventional transliteration is 'selang' to me, a sort of `1930's affected accent which even the Queen of England has abandoned!
I don't know anyone who pronounces slang ซแลง I say ซลัง the short form of ซลาง so do Americans I think.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Richard Wordingham » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:31 pm

Thomas wrote:Do Thais really need to put in an (a quarter to half long) /a/ into the English loan สแลง [สะ-แลง] in order to pronounce it like proper English?

No more than the English need to insert a schwa to say German Knabe or French pneu.

I'm really not sure what the truth is about the length of the corresponding Thai vowel. Thai sources describe it very much as Sanskrit grammarians describe the svarabhakti vowel, but European phoneticists treat it as a normal unstressed vowel.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Tgeezer » Sat Jan 07, 2017 2:21 am

The vowel in สบาย is describes as กึ่งเสียง as I remember. Thai consonants all need , which is why I suppose is described as a vowel, but is not said สอ where it leads (what English calls part of a 'cluster') but สะ . We are supposed to be able to distinguish between สะดวก and สบาย not say สดวกสบาย .
On the question of the vowel แอ, แท็ปแล็ต is how Tablet, the I pad, is described. Should we pronounce it 'teblet', 'tablat'?
Would tablet sound too English?
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Richard Wordingham » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:11 pm

Tgeezer wrote:On the question of the vowel แอ, แท็ปแล็ต is how Tablet, the I pad, is described. Should we pronounce it 'teblet', 'tablat'?
Would tablet sound too English?

Google, using advanced search, suggests at least 23:1 in favour of แท็ปเล็ต rather then แท็ปแล็ต.

As I don't know which town you come from, I can't comment on the possibilities for the initial vowel as you expressed them. An old-fashioned RP [æ] would be good, as the short Thai vowel is opener than the long Thai vowel.
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Re: Is there a rule for this kind of cluster กลยุทธ?

Postby Richard Wordingham » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:13 pm

Tgeezer wrote:We are supposed to be able to distinguish between สะดวก and สบาย not say สดวกสบาย .

If this distinction is real, it is yet another distinction the RID is unable to make in its phonetic respelling.
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