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About stress in sentence

Vowel & consonant graphemes (letters), syllables, and orthography

Moderator: acloudmovingby

About stress in sentence

Postby theoldman » Wed Jul 06, 2016 2:49 am

We `heard `John `talking (plain statement of fact).
We `heard John talking (implied contrast-“but we didn’t see him”).
We heard `John talking (implied contrast-“but didn’t hear Mary”).
`We heard John talking (implied contrast-“but others didn’t”).
We heard John `talking (implied contrast-“but we didn’t hear him singing”) .
-from "The features and training of English stress and rhythm" by CAI Cui-yun

I was thinking about sentence stress and was wondering if it really matters in Thai. In English, as it's showed in the sentences above, sure, it does matter to be clear which one the speaker really wanted to stress (convey).
In Thai, I don't think we have this kind of sentence stress.
เราได้ยินจอห์นพูด
It might not make any differences, whether you would stress on any word or not. Somehow it's like the combining of (two) stresses that are affected by stress shift in English. For example:

very warm + welcome = a very warm welcome

a hard day + night = a hard day's night

(bold letter = primary stress; italic letter = secondary stress)

Let's see another examples:

English teacher = teacher of English (primary stress on E);
English teacher = teacher who is English

White House = US President's residence;
white house = any house which is white

darkroom = for processing films;
dark room = a room which is dark

-From "Word Stress and Sentence Accent" by Hector Ortiz-Lira

In Thai, we don't have (and cannot make a different stress to tell which is which).
ครูอังกฤษ This could means either a teacher who is English or a teacher of English. So a speaker might add some words to make a difference.
ครูชาวอังกฤษ (a teacher who is English) versus ครูสอน (ภาษา) อังกฤษ (A teacher who teaches English).
We cannot make it different by just stressing some word, like it does in English. What really matters is about how to pronounce each word rightly. As the right pronunciation is a must as in English.
เราได้ยินจอห์นพูด must not become ราวด้ายยีนจ้อนปูด.
เรา = we vs ราว = rail
ได้ = get vs ด้าย = thread
ยิน = heard vs ยีน = jeans
(In fact ได้ยิน is just one word, means "to hear; heard")
จอห์น = John vs จ้อน = it a Thai name for a boy but also a slang word for a penis.
พูด = talk/speak vs ปูด = swollen

Please feel free to share any idea about this.

P.S. For the record, I'm Thai and not good at English grammar. I could only speak from a Thai point of view only.
theoldman
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:27 am

Re: About stress in sentence

Postby Tgeezer » Wed Jul 06, 2016 5:58 am

theoldman wrote:We `heard `John `talking (plain statement of fact).
We `heard John talking (implied contrast-“but we didn’t see him”).
We heard `John talking (implied contrast-“but didn’t hear Mary”).
`We heard John talking (implied contrast-“but others didn’t”).
We heard John `talking (implied contrast-“but we didn’t hear him singing”) .
-from "The features and training of English stress and rhythm" by CAI Cui-yun

I was thinking about sentence stress and was wondering if it really matters in Thai. In English, as it's showed in the sentences above, sure, it does matter to be clear which one the speaker really wanted to stress (convey).
In Thai, I don't think we have this kind of sentence stress.
เราได้ยินจอห์นพูด
It might not make any differences, whether you would stress on any word or not. Somehow it's like the combining of (two) stresses that are affected by stress shift in English. For example:

very warm + welcome = a very warm welcome

a hard day + night = a hard day's night

(bold letter = primary stress; italic letter = secondary stress)

Let's see another examples:

English teacher = teacher of English (primary stress on E);
English teacher = teacher who is English

White House = US President's residence;
white house = any house which is white

darkroom = for processing films;
dark room = a room which is dark

-From "Word Stress and Sentence Accent" by Hector Ortiz-Lira

In Thai, we don't have (and cannot make a different stress to tell which is which).
ครูอังกฤษ This could means either a teacher who is English or a teacher of English. So a speaker might add some words to make a difference.
ครูชาวอังกฤษ (a teacher who is English) versus ครูสอน (ภาษา) อังกฤษ (A teacher who teaches English).
We cannot make it different by just stressing some word, like it does in English. What really matters is about how to pronounce each word rightly. As the right pronunciation is a must as in English.
เราได้ยินจอห์นพูด must not become ราวด้ายยีนจ้อนปูด.
เรา = we vs ราว = rail
ได้ = get vs ด้าย = thread
ยิน = heard vs ยีน = jeans
(In fact ได้ยิน is just one word, means "to hear; heard")
จอห์น = John vs จ้อน = it a Thai name for a boy but also a slang word for a penis.
พูด = talk/speak vs ปูด = swollen

Please feel free to share any idea about this.

P.S. For the record, I'm Thai and not good at English grammar. I could only speak from a Thai point of view only.

I say, thank you for pointing that out, my first reaction is that there is no way of showing stress in written English so just like Thai we must explain, as you have done with 'John'.
As to "A very warm welcome" I don't think that stress matters because the meaning is clear. Some would say a " A 'very warm welcome..." And others might say " A very 'warm welcome..." .

I am fascinated by ราวดายจีนจ้อนปูด , would you say that everybody would understand it? I would need to start at the end with จ้อนปูด and once that idea was established make ราวด้ายจีน into a picture 'seams of jeans' then back to ปูด, I would get penis swollen, straining at the seams of his jeans. I would be interested in knowing whether this is anything like the way you see it. Is it possible to modify ราวด้ายจีน with จ้อนปูด for example?

I shall ponder these things as I walk the course today, it may provide me with that 'detatchment' so necessary if one is to play good golf.
คับที่อยู่ได้คับใจอยู่ยาก
Tgeezer
 
Posts: 653
Joined: Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:41 am

Re: About stress in sentence

Postby theoldman » Wed Jul 06, 2016 6:59 am

Hello Tgeezer,

Thanks for your input.

I felt a bit relieved to hear that. I mean, as a Thai who is an English leaner, I've found that I might not be able to stress every word rightly when I speak English. As I already pointed out, there's no need about that in Thai. It's completely different system. And maybe this is the very reason it's hard for a native English speaker to understand when heard someone (whose English is not his first language) speaking English.
As for ราวดายยีนจ้อนปูด (ยีน can mean jeans and gene in English), I only meant about its mispronunciation. A Thai cannot understand it except it's said it all with the right pronunciation which is เราได้ยินจอห์นพูด
Yes, if a Thai heard the sentence with all mispronunciation, ราวด้ายจีนจ้อนปูด, he would think, as you stated, about straining at the seams of his jeans. (I have to say, this was a nice one from your wit). Because ด้ายจีน = Chinese thread; ยีนส์ = jeans; and จ้อนปูด = a swollen penis.
Anyway, if it has only some mispronunciations, such as, เราได้ยินจ้อนปูด, A Thai might get most of it. It means "We heard Mr. จ้อน talking". ปูด also means a slang which also could mean speak/talk. For example, อย่าปูดไปนะ! (Don't talk about it!)
Have a nice ออกรอบ (round) for your กอล์ฟ!
theoldman
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:27 am

Re: About stress in sentence

Postby David and Bui » Thu Jul 07, 2016 2:17 am

I believe that there is stress and intonation in Thai sentences. However, the stress and its usages is different than in English. Consider the following:

1. "สัก" pronounced often as "ซัก" with a high tone to emphasize just a moment or just a bit (usually spoken with a bit of a pause after the word สัก). Example: "คอยสักห้านาทีได้ไหม"

2. "แหม" pronounced in a singsong manner used as an interjection to express surprise or discontent.
Example: "แหม... คุณเนี่ย... ปากหวานจัง!"
Example: "แหม... แค่แซวเล่น ๆ อย่าคิดมากน่า"

3. The variations in ค่ะ spoken by females as sentence tags such as "คะ", "ค่ะ", "ขะ", "ค่า", "จะ", "จ้า", "หะ" which convey various emotional content.
While these may be considered different words, I think the are more properly seen as intonational variations.

5. "มากๆ" "ยาวๆ" "นานๆ" etc. where the first words are pronounced high and elongated followed by the second repetitive word in an untoned manner. These emphasize stress and duration.

I'm sure you can think of others in this category where the written form does not reflect the spoken conventions.

What do you think?
David in Houston
David and Bui
 
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Location: Houston, Texas

Re: About stress in sentence

Postby theoldman » Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:12 am

Hello David,
Very good point! I do agree. Thanks.
It seems, as you said, in spoken language of Thai, it will not pronounce the same as in written language. Hence, "สัก" becomes ซัก"; "เขา" becomes "เค้า"; "ฉัน" becomes "ชั้น"; "อย่างนั้น อย่างนี้" becomes "ยังงั้ ยังงี้" etc.
[This reminds me of a ventriloquist (film dubber) once told me that he could not dub along the translated dub he got because no one really said that in the real life (spoken language).]
Some example here is many Thai girls always write "คะ" instead of "ค่" which is so wrong in that context. Though they get it right when they speak. "คะ" is like a question question tag. For example, "กินข้าวไหมคะ?" = (You want to) eat rice, won't you? Or it could add at the end on any question female speaker asks, to show a polite manner.
While "ค่ะ" (with the first tonal marker) means, "yes". To show that you agree with what a speaker has said/asked.
It's not a case for a male. "ครับ" could be added both in a question and to show that you are agree.

Anyway, whether I heard "ฉัน" or "ชั้น", I'll get it with no problem, even "ชั้น" could mean "shelf; floor etc.", not "I", its context helps me understand it immediately. What I was wondering is, as you already said so, in Thai sentence, the stress and its usages are different than in English, if someone who is an English learner like I am, trying to speak English with the right sentence stress, could we do that?
As for me, for example, I still have a hard time after I heard, to distinguish between White house (US President's residence) and white house (any house which is white).
theoldman
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:27 am

Re: About stress in sentence

Postby David and Bui » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:00 am

I wonder if there's a bit of a distinction here. The transformation from เขา to เค้า and from ฉัน to ช้ั้น seems to be a pronunciation shift which carries no per se emotional or comprehension content. If this is true, then it is not intonation as I understand it. Two more simplification shifts: "มหาลัย" or "หมาลัย" for "มหาวิทยาลัย" (common among university students) and "พิจนา" for "พิจารณา" (heard often in parliamentary debates).

Another example of intonation in Thai that I keep hearing is the use of ไง as an end of sentence tag to indicate disagreement with a previous speaker or a slight disparagement of what the speaker said.

Example: "มัมบอกว่ามันยังอยู่ที่ที่ทำงานไง" ["ไง" pronounced in a sneering manner] (He said that he was still in the office [but with the understanding that he really wasn't].

Example: "นี่ไง" [spoken with a sneer] ("Here they are!" [Your car keys are right here; how could you be so stupid as to lose them!]
David in Houston
David and Bui
 
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Re: About stress in sentence

Postby theoldman » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:08 am

Hmm...I think a pronunciation shift from เขา to เค้า and from ฉัน to ชั้น etc. carries no per se emotional or comprehension content, as you said. Agree. it might be compared to "going to" becomes "gonna"; "want to" becomes "wanna"; "got to" becomes "gotta" etc. Whether there's a pronunciation shift or not, it doesn't convey any different emotional content, just to be more easy to say, hence the spoken language, not the written language. So do "มหาวิทยาลัย" to "มหาลัย" or "หมาลัย"; "พิจารณา" to "พิจนา". It's wrong (or sound uneducated) if it's the written language but it's okay for the spoken language.
As for ไง, it's from "อย่างไรเล่า". Don't know exactly how to translate this phrase into English. It's close to "how" or "in what way" in English.

มันบอกว่า มันยังอยู่ที่ที่ทำงานไง (How did he say he still has been at his office?)

And I guess (but don't know for sure) that in English, the stress on "How", "still be" and "office" might tell about the speaker's understanding (the truth) that he really wasn't there, right? And it also conveyed the emotional of the speaker. And this was what I wonder. How could an English learner know how to stress all the right words at once? Comparing with Thai, it might stress only on the word "ไง", with a sneering pronunciation (or some adding word), to convey that it was a question or a doubt or even a sarcasm, not just a simple saying. Another way of saying this is, "ไหนมันบอกว่า มันยังอยู่ที่ที่ทำงาน?" (Didn't he say that he still has been at this office?" ไหน is the word to convey a doubt, complain and question. It means "How could he say/lie about that" in this context.

มันบอกว่า มันยังอยู่ที่ที่ทำงาน ไม่ใช่หรือ? (He said he still has been at his office, didn't he?). Yes, if, in Thai, "ไม่ใช่หรือ?" is stressed, it means a doubt, a question or even a sarcasm.
Comparing to "มันบอกว่า มันยังอยู่ที่ที่ทำงาน", (with no stress words) which doesn't convey any doubt or a question.
As for "นี่ไง" or "นี่อย่างไรเล่า", it means (in this context, with a sneer) "อ๋อ อยู่ที่นี่นั่นเอง" (Ah! it's here!)
P.S. Sorry for any errors and typos.
theoldman
 
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2011 12:27 am

Re: About stress in sentence

Postby David and Bui » Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:13 am

One more perhaps: The difference between the normal "หรือ" to end a sentence and "เหรอ". I think that the latter in the spoken language tends to convey skepticism. Is that correct?
David in Houston
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Re: About stress in sentence

Postby David and Bui » Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:28 am

And yet one more example from the cover of this weeks Matichon Weekend just published this morning: a picture of Democracy Monument over the caption: "เรียบโร้ยย". Is this an example of intonation in the written form? And, if so, what does it mean?

Thanks.
David in Houston
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