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ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

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ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby theoldman » Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:08 am

ผู้หญิงฝรั่งงอนเป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

I really don’t know how to ask the above question in English as I don’t know if it’s also the case for English speaker (woman.)

งอน” is some kind of being petulant, peevish, badly spoiled girl who wants anyone to please/make ingratiating/fawning to her all the time. :-)

Thanks in advance for any answer.
theoldman
 
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Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby Tgeezer » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:54 am

Since no one is up for this, we may as well discuss it.

ผู้หญิงฝรั่งงอนเป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Is this asking: Are farang women capable of being งอน ?

I see that your definition carries the meaning that งอน is behavior in the character of a person.
I remember บุคลิกภาพ which everyone was crazy about some years ago; applied to people one met, I think we called it characteristics or personality or something, so I wonder if that, or นิสัย, shouldn't somehow be shoe-horned in to show that งอน means part of the typical farang women's character. Probably not necessary; but it is a quiet day. :(


งอน ๑ น. ส่วนปลายแห่งของบางอย่างที่เป็นรูปยาวเรียวและช้อยขึ้น เช่น
งอนไถ. . ช้อยขึ้น, โง้งขึ้น. . แสดงอาการโกรธเคืองหรือไม่พอใจ
เพื่อให้เขาง้อ, ทําจริตสะบัดสะบิ้ง.

ง้อ . ขอคืนดีด้วย, ขอพึ่งพาอาศัย. This one says it best; acting up in order to get the person to plead for a return to normal relations.
สะบัดสะบิ้ง . แสดงอาการกะบึงกะบอนแสนงอน เช่น เวลางอน
ก็ทำกิริยาสะบัดสะบิ้ง
จริต [จะหฺริด] . ความประพฤติ, กิริยาหรืออาการ, เช่น พุทธจริต เสียจริต
วิกลจริต, บางทีใช้ในทางไม่ดี เช่น ดัดจริต มีจริต, จริตจะก้าน ก็ว่า. (.).
Tgeezer
 

Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby theoldman » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:44 am

Hi Tgeezer,
First of all, thanks for saving my face as it seems any farang lady doesn’t care to answer it and any farang gentleman doesn’t want to look for any trouble. :-)
Yes, my question is “Are farang women capable of being งอน ?”
The meaning of งอน I asked is behavior in the character of a person.
งอน = สะบัดสะบิ้ง (loosely means “act brusquely”) and as I wrote above, it’s the character of a badly spoiled girl (both young and adult) who being petulant, peevish and always want anyone (especially a boy/man) to “ง้อ” (please/make ingratiating/fawning to) her all the time.
[or as you wrote - ง้อ ก. ขอคืนดีด้วย. This one says it best; acting up in order to get the person to plead for a return to normal relations.]
This question doesn’t mean to be rude at all. It’s just that I wonder if farang woman's character is the same as Thai woman’s character in this context.
There’s a Thai popular phrase to describe a woman of this character: “ยิ่งงอน ยิ่งงาม” or “ยิ่งงาม ยิ่งงอน” (the more she “งอน” the more she is beautiful) (the more she’s beautiful, the more she งอน.”) It means some (if not most of) beautiful women trend to have this character. :-)
And she has right to have this kind of character because she’s beautiful and any man wants to please her all the time.
(But the real meaning is about a badly spoiled character.)
Let me give an example of “งอน” here. A girl expected that her boyfriend would buy her some flower but he bought chocolate instead. When he asked “Are you all right?” She said, “Yes!” even she was not. (She just งอน and wanted him to ง้อ” her.) I know farang woman only a few but I know that “Yes” from any farang woman or man literally means yes (which is different from Thai character more or less.)
For example, Thai always say, “ไม่เป็นไร” (That’s all right/never mind/forget it/it doesn’t matter) even it really does matter! This is one of Thai character. We kind of being afraid to show our real emotions and always want to look like we are the cool guys (even we are not.) :-)
theoldman
 
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Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby pensive » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:55 am

I don't think it is the case in the West. The West has the ideal of gender equality which more or less means that petulant behaviour will not be tolerated as a rule. Of course, an exception can be made for beautiful women, but I think exception is also made for footballers. But leaving these extreme cases aside, my answer would be, no.
pensive
 
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Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby theoldman » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:24 am

Thanks Pensive,
So, if a farang woman said to me, “No. And Good luck,”
it means no way I could ง้อ her, right? :cry:

:lol:
theoldman
 
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Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby Tgeezer » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:22 pm

montyb wrote:Thanks Pensive,
So, if a farang woman said to me, “No. And Good luck,”
it means no way I could ง้อ her, right? :cry:

:lol:

I suppose that there are national characteristics, but there is variety in every nation and everyone is capable of every variation, whether their nationality dictates it or not.
I don't know how you do montyb, but speaking for myself, if a woman said "no and good luck" to me, it would definitely mean "No way!" where ever was born. :(
Tgeezer
 

Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby theoldman » Tue Oct 23, 2012 2:26 pm

Thanks Tgeezer
What I still don’t get is “good luck!”
So she really meant “No, bad luck”, right?
How could I have a good luck if she meant “no”? :-)

Language is so amazing! (if not confusing)
It reminds me of this:
Some NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming) experts claim that “question tag” using is one of the efficient ways for an indirect suggestion.
You can do it, can’t you? (suggest to your unconsciousness that you can do it.)
While, “You can do it!” is too obvious and it often doesn’t work because somehow it still sounds like expectation/command.
Frankly speak, as a Thai native, I don’t see the difference much.
You can do it, can’t you? (this seems to me as “you can do it or not?” But not “somehow you can do it anyway.”)
You cannot do it, can you? (this seems to me as the polite way to say “you cannot do it”)
You cannot do it! (This seems to be a prohibition)
You can do it! (Still seems to be a suggestion/encouragement.)
theoldman
 
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Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby bifftastic » Tue Oct 23, 2012 9:45 pm

Generalisations aside, there are most definitely women in the west who display the same traits as Thai women in this regard!

The first time my (now) wife said the famous phrase 'up to you' I thought "Oh no, here we go again!"

It can, in either country, mean;
"up to you (but you better choose what I wanted you to choose)"
"up to you (you will make the wrong choice, I know you will)"
"up to you (it's actually up to you, I don't mind, honestly)"
"up to you (it's definitely NOT up to you!)"

There are women here (in London) who believe that because they are beautiful, they can expect men to run around after them. They are often correct!

Translation from one language or culture to another is often difficult, from one gender to another, often impossible! :)

And as for "No, and good luck" that might be an encouragement! Or it might be that the person will be amused by your attempts! :lol:

Thanks for the phrase “ยิ่งงาม ยิ่งงอน” I will have to (carefully) use that sometime! ;)
bifftastic
 
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Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby Tgeezer » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:42 pm

montyb wrote:Thanks Tgeezer
What I still don’t get is “good luck!”
So she really meant “No, bad luck”, right?
How could I have a good luck if she meant “no”? :-)

Language is so amazing! (if not confusing)
It reminds me of this:
Some NLP (Neuro-linguistic programming) experts claim that “question tag” using is one of the efficient ways for an indirect suggestion.
You can do it, can’t you? (suggest to your unconsciousness that you can do it.)
While, “You can do it!” is too obvious and it often doesn’t work because somehow it still sounds like expectation/command.
Frankly speak, as a Thai native, I don’t see the difference much.
You can do it, can’t you? (this seems to me as “you can do it or not?” But not “somehow you can do it anyway.”)
You cannot do it, can you? (this seems to me as the polite way to say “you cannot do it”)
You cannot do it! (This seems to be a prohibition)
You can do it! (Still seems to be a suggestion/encouragement.)

I answered as if ง้อ were a form of flirtation, which indeed it may have become. I don't think that any woman would be งอน to anyone she didn't know, and she wants ง้อ so she would accept it as soon as she thought that you had shown suitable contrition.
I can answer the "no, good luck" expression if I establish the situation as a proposal by the man that he and she should become friends.
So leaving งอน ง้อ to one side.

I think that the good luck reply to a proposal, means , "I think that you are rubbish and won't be any more successful with anyone else. Another way to say this is: better luck next time(with someone else) .

As to when to use can't you,can not, can, etc. used colloquially; best learnt on the coalface I think.
You are close enough, I think :? but the more I analyse the less I see.
Tgeezer
 

Re: ผู้หญิงฝรั่ง ”งอน” เป็นหรือเปล่าครับ?

Postby theoldman » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:15 am

Hi bifftastic,
Yes, it reminds me of this famous first line, : To be, or not to be: that is the question.
In your case, “up to you, or not up to you: that is always the question.”
Thanks. Your post make me grin as I also got that kind of experience a lot. :-)
Around 40 years ago, there was a Thai song called “จับกระแต” (catching a treeshrew):
รักหญิงยอดงามต้องมีความใจเย็น เธอมักทำเล่นตัวแสนงอน
ถือว่างามเฉิดฉาย ต้องให้ชายวิงวอน ยิ่งงามยิ่งงอน
แม้รักเธอจริงจัง ต้องระวังยั้งใจไว้ก่อน
รู้ว่างอนยิ่งงาม หล่อนยิ่งทำเป็นงอน ขอให้เพียงออดอ้อนอ่อนง้อโดยดี
งอนแท้แม่งาม หนุ่มต้องตาม ง้อแม่งอนอ่อนน้อมยอมพลี
จับกระแตยากแค่ไหน ก็ไม่เท่านารี
มักจะดิ้นหลุดหนี ปราดเปรียวและไวสิ้นดี
จะบอกวิธี พิชิตเธอให้ ใช้กรงรักดักล่อป้อยอเอาใจ
พลัดเข้ากรงเมื่อไร ปราบเสียให้ซมซาน
จะปราบคนแง่งอนให้อ่อนอยู่มือ ใช้แต่ไม้ดื้อเป็นแรงต้านทาน
หล่อนจะผลักไสไม่ต้องย่อท้อ ถึงหน้าง้ำงอเราก็ยิ้มหวาน
หล่อนจะว่าไรเราไม่แยแส ตื้อเท่านั้นแลที่จะครองจักรวาล
มินานหรอกนะหล่อนก็จะสงสาร ถึงทีได้การ ปราบให้หวานไปเลย
I’m not good at translate Thai to English, sorry. Just try to translate it loosely here:
If you fell in love with a beautiful woman, you have to be calm. She always plays hard to get (งอน all the time) as she knows well about her beauty. The more she’s beautiful, the more she งอน.
If you really love her, you have to consider the pros and cons carefully before taking any action. You just keep imploring ง้อ her. Cathing a treeshrew is hard, catching her heart is harder. She’s so agile and always find the way to free herself. The trick is you have to lure her with the cage of love. Pamper and curry favor with her (until she’s willing to go into the cage by herself.) Stubbornness is your tool. Keep pampering her even she kicked you out. Keep smiling even she scowls. Then one day she will feel for you and you would win her heart.

ThanksTgeezer,
Okay, I get it. I get it. :-)
Why I feel like I was dumped!?
Seriously, I’ve found that it’s always really hard for me to understand the words in the virtual world/cyber space. It seems that it’s very easy for anyone to say (write) something he/she doesn’ t really mean it. Maybe it’s because they are not honest enough or maybe it’s because they honestly don’t know themselves deep down inside (that’s why we need a shrink for that purpose?) or maybe it’s just because they honestly don’t know how to express themselves into the right words (writer/poet’s job?) I have been working with words (sure, mostly in my native language) for almost 30 years but I have to confess that there’re always a lot to learn. Maybe I could never learn or never find the right meaning behind the word?
(And that’s why the emotion icons is a must. :D :roll: :( Because there’s no way we could know what the other really feel. But again, so many times someone use it even she/he doesn’t feel that way. :shock: )
Talking with you and our friends here help me a lot . At least we know each other for some time. And that’s really helpful to get what the other really mean.
theoldman
 
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