ศาลาชุมนุม

[David and Bui]

Friends,

Here is something interesting from the "Royal Institute Dictionary of New Words, Vol. 3"

จำเป็น ๑. ว. ต้องเป็นอย่างนั้น, ต้องทำ, ขาดไม่ได้. (พจน.)
๒. ว. จำต้องทำหน้าที่ใดหน้าที่หนึ่งแทนผู้อื่น เช่น พิธีกรตัวจริงไม่มา เขาก็เลยต้องเป็นพิธีกรจำเป็น.

The word จำเป็น has two meanings, the first is the one included in the primary Royal Institute "dictionary" (พจน.) that is, "is necessary, something which must be done, something which cannot be missed"

The second meaning is an adverb meaning "something that is required to e done in place of someone else." The sample sentence is,
"The master of ceremonies did not come; he thus had to serve as the master of ceremonies of necessity." or
"The master of ceremonies did not come; he thus had to serve by necessity as the master of ceremonies."

Have you ever come across this usage?

[Tgeezer]

Friends,

Here is something interesting from the "Royal Institute Dictionary of New Words, Vol. 3"

จำเป็น ๑. ว. ต้องเป็นอย่างนั้น, ต้องทำ, ขาดไม่ได้. (พจน.)
๒. ว. จำต้องทำหน้าที่ใดหน้าที่หนึ่งแทนผู้อื่น เช่น พิธีกรตัวจริงไม่มา เขาก็เลยต้องเป็นพิธีกรจำเป็น.

The word จำเป็น has two meanings, the first is the one included in the primary Royal Institute "dictionary" (พจน.) that is, "is necessary, something which must be done, something which cannot be missed"

The second meaning is an adverb meaning "something that is required to e done in place of someone else." The sample sentence is,
"The master of ceremonies did not come; he thus had to serve as the master of ceremonies of necessity." or
"The master of ceremonies did not come; he thus had to serve by necessity as the master of ceremonies."

Have you ever come across this usage?

Never come across it. "'Made to do some duty for someone else." Is what I make of it.
Substitute/stand-in MC. Since we normally put adjectives first in English.
Edit: maybe I was a little hasty in calling 'substitute/stand-in an adjective but they seem to serve in that way. Thai is different from English in some ways and it seems to me that if you can't find an English equivalent then the Thai meaning dies out, which is perhaps why we haven't come across this word. If Thais understand the definition as I do then they could name this person as ผู้จำเป็น= substtute but I imagine that ผู้แทน is probably more likely to be used.
How would พิธีกรจำเป็น differ from พิธีกรแทน ?

[MSSF]

I was also puzzled with จำเป็น. ไม่เข้าใจจริงๆ

[David and Bui]

I was also puzzled with จำเป็น. ไม่เข้าใจจริงๆ

I do like the idea expressed by one poster that จำเป็น in this case means "out of necessity".

[Tgeezer]

I was also puzzled with จำเป็น. ไม่เข้าใจจริงๆ

I do like the idea expressed by one poster that จำเป็น in this case means "out of necessity".

I think we should ask what is a ตำรวจจริง and compare that with a สายลับจำเป็นฺ
If it is a pairing of real policemen and spies จำเป็น 'of necessity' works. Are they not recognisable as policemen but policemen who have to work undercover?
The show isn't the sort of thing that I would watch but I expect that people who follow the story know what the situation is and how จำเป็น works.

[Alan]

Have you ever encountered the term คาราจำเป็น? I recall a candid photo being taken of someone and featured in one of the Thai daily newspapers. The caption read:
ยิ้มหน่อย คาราจำเป็น. It seemed to capture the notion that the "ดารา" was an unwilling or even unaware participant. Maybe "Give us a little smile, involuntary star". Or maybe "Complusory star"? "Star out of necessity?" I recall that the picture was of a soldier who was manning a bunker in Bangkok. He seemed not to be aware that his picture was taken (although I've no way of knowing that for sure). I used the term once at a conference when someone who had not planned to speak, was suddenly catapulted to fame and had to deliver a speech because the scheduled speaker was sick. I said to this person who seemed reluctant and unready to deliver a speech without preparation: "เดี๋ยวก็ดังนะ ดาราจำเป็น". I wonder what other "จำเป็น s" there are.

[Tgeezer]

Have you ever encountered the term คาราจำเป็น? I recall a candid photo being taken of someone and featured in one of the Thai daily newspapers. The caption read:
ยิ้มหน่อย คาราจำเป็น. It seemed to capture the notion that the "ดารา" was an unwilling or even unaware participant. Maybe "Give us a little smile, involuntary star". Or maybe "Complusory star"? "Star out of necessity?" I recall that the picture was of a soldier who was manning a bunker in Bangkok. He seemed not to be aware that his picture was taken (although I've no way of knowing that for sure). I used the term once at a conference when someone who had not planned to speak, was suddenly catapulted to fame and had to deliver a speech because the scheduled speaker was sick. I said to this person who seemed reluctant and unready to deliver a speech without preparation: "เดี๋ยวก็ดังนะ ดาราจำเป็น". I wonder what other "จำเป็น s" there are.

I suppose we are not used to seeing จำเป็น in the final governing position. I have always wondered why จำเป็น has its own entry in the dictionary because I have always been able to make sense of it especially in the final position. จำ = ฝืนใจทำ + เป็น = สามารถ,ได้ a statement modified with a วิเศษณ์ :
หนุ่มสาวภาคอีสานจำเป็นต้องมาหางานทำที่กรุงเทพ ๆ becomes หนุ่มสาวภาคอีสานมาหางานทำที่กรุงเทพ ๆ จำเป็น

[Alan]

You raise a good question, Tgeezer. Just how much "up front load" can there be before the จำเป็น. I don't know the answer to that one, but so far I've just seen simple nouns identifying people and their "position" like ดารา, ตำรวจ, พิธกร ฯลฯ

I'd like to submit another occurrence of จำเป็น which led me to a possibly different translation. You know how sometimes we say "of the moment" or "of the hour" or "on the spot" as in: "You were really the man of the moment/of the hour, when you arrived just in time to solve the plumbing problem" or we have an idiom which may be local to Americans only but sometimes we say "he was really Johnnie on the spot!" referring to someone who arrives just in time to solve a problem or suddenly take on some duty in a situation with no notice. The other idea would be "in a pinch". We might say, "he's not a real electrician, but he's our "electrician in a pinch" (might be said if he fixed an electrical problem - even just temporarily). Or, sticking closely to the Thai, we might just translate it as "of necessity". (I think that was suggested in an earlier post - but I can't find it and I apologize for not siting the poster ). But "Of necessity" kind of conveys that there wasn't a better choice, so we necessarily have to use this one.

I could imagine having some fun with this phrase. You plan to go to dinner somewhere but find out the place is closed. But someone in the group says - okay, come over to my place and I'll cook us dinner with whatever's in the refrigerator (ต้องจับแพะมาชยแกะ)...The person who offered cooks up a great meal and you call them a "เชฟระดับห้าดาวจำเป็น" (You're the 5 star chef of the hour!/5 star chef "in a pinch"). Again, back to your question Tgeezer, could you load it up with all that baggage, or do you have to just say "เชฟจำเป็น". I don't know the answer to that. Or, perhaps joking around with a guy who you've always found attractive, but who turned you down in your bid to become more than friends: "กินแห้วแล้วนะคุณ! โอเคเป็นแฟนกันไม่ได้ฉันก็ยอมร้บดิ(using ดิ instead of สิ gives it a วัยรุ่น feel)...เอาเป็นว่า เราเป็นกิ๊กจำเป็นกันและกัน!" (You turned me down already (I had to eat bitter แห้ว) - okay, we can't be boyfriend/girlfriend...I accept it... but how 'bout we just be "Giks in a pinch"/Giks of the moment".

I've got to emphasize that I just made these examples up and don't know how they'd really "play"...any comment would be appreciated. I think the problem is that there's a fine line between complimenting someone and saying "wow, you're the star of the moment" and saying "we just used you out of necessity because there was nothing better." But I feel that the sense of it is that its a a fun and amusing phrase.

Or, in the case of the plumber: The ส้วม was all clogged with paper. Flushing the toilet didn't help at all. In fact, it made things worse. A person who is just a guest at the house and who is not a plumber at all finds a way to solve the problem - and although this is not his profession, we might say "ข้าขอซูฮกนักประปาจำเป็น" (Im purposely mixing he formal pronoun in with the "plumber of the moment/plumber in a pinch" to make it funny). "I should like to bestow my respect to the plumber of the moment"...It's like your telling them that they just got their 15 minutes of fame...

This จำเป็น thing could have a lot of Yield...In just about any case where you ask someone to do something and they refuse, I wonder if you could "comeback" with "yeah, but how about you just be the (whatever you asked them to be) of the moment". I guess I've raised more questions than answers.

[Thomas]

พิธีกรตัวจริงไม่มา เขาก็เลยต้องเป็นพิธีกรจำเป็น

an attempt from my side:

Literally:

master of cermonies in charge/the true one not coming.
he, thus, had to be the proxy-master of cermonies.

My understanding:

The master of cermony in charge did not come. Thus, the master of cermonies (= เขา) had to be the deputy (master of cermonies).

Very free:

The cermony was performed by the deputy because the master of cermonies in charge did not come.

[Thomas]

๒. ว. ... The second meaning is an adverb

ว. is an abbreviation for วิเศษณ์ but not for "adverb".