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สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 5:10 am
by Tgeezer
I have had a book for years and will post some of its content here to see if anyone finds the instructions worth comment and as a bit of touch typing practise for me.
As you may know the definition of สมบัติผู้ดี is good manners in thought, word and deed possessed of a good person. The book is directed at children but the contents forms the basis of adult manners.
The book is divided into three chapters namely deed, word and thought in the approximate proportions 5 3 2 respectively, which I take to reflect the relative importance of each; actions speak louder than words which speak louder than thoughts.
So to begin, the first page of each chapter.

หมวดที่ ๑ กายบฏิบัติ
๑ ผู้ดีไม่ควรใช้กิริยาล่วงเกินผู้อื่น
, ไม่ยกเท้าให้ใครหรือไปสัมผัสผู้ใด
, ไม่ยกมือหรือชี้นิ้วผ่านหน้าผู้ใด
, ไม่ยกมือข้ามศีรษะผู้ใด
, ไม่เหยียดเท้าไปทางผู้ใด
, เมื่อต้องเดินผ่านผู้ใหญ่ที่นั่งอยู่ ต้องคลานผ่านไป**
, เมื่อต้องเดินผ่านผู้ใหญ่ที่ยืนอยู่ ต้องเดินก้มหลังผ่านไป
, เมื่อเดินเข้าใกล้ผู้ใดมากเกินไป ต้องถอยห่างในระยะที่พอเหมาะ

หมวดที่ ๒ วจีบฏิบัติ
๑ ผู้ดีต้องรู้จักพูดในที่ควรพูด
, ขณะที่ผู้อื่นกำลังสนทนากันอยู่นั้น เราห้ามเข้าไปพูดแทรกแซงเด็ดขาด
, ขณะที่เรากำลังฟังผู้อื่นพูดอยู่นั้น ห้ามพูดสอดแทรกหรือขัดจังหวะเด็ดขาด
, ขณะที่เรากำลังฟังผู้อิ่นพูดอยู่นั้น ถ้ามีความจำเป็นต้องพูดสอดแทรก ต้องรอให้ผู้พูดจบเรื่องนั้นก่อนและค่อยขออนุญาตผู้พูดเพื่อพูดในสิ่งที่เราต้องการพูด
, ขณะที่เราฟังผู้อื่นพูดอยู่นั้น ถ้ามีเรื่องสงสัยและต้องการซักถาม ต้องถามทีละคน ห้ามแย่งกันถาม

หมวดที่ ๓ มโนบัฏิบัติ
๑ ผู้ดีต้ิองไม่แสดงความโกรธธออกมา
. เมื่อทีความรู้สึกโกรธหรือไม่พอใจในสิ่งใดไม่ควรแสดงความโกระนั้นออกมา ต้องเก็บความรู้สึกนั้นไว้ในใจ
** Not only for kids if a real ผู้ใหญ่

Re: สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:04 am
by David and Bui
Tgeezer,

The sentence "ผู้ดีไม่ควรใช้กิริยาล่วงเกินผู้อื่น", does this mean, "Gentlemen and ladies should not act in a manner which infringes on the rights or person of others." ? How about, "Ladies and gentlemen should not trespass into the space of others."

Re: สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 8:38 am
by mangkorn
In this context, I think ไม่ควรใช้กิริยาล่วงเกิน means should not act in a rude or insulting manner.

Re: สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 4:33 am
by Tgeezer
Rather than translate guessable words, I was thinking about the phraseology. อยู่นั้น crops up in วจีบฏิบัติ but not often in กายบฏิบัติ.
เมื่อต้องเดินผ่านผู้ใหญ่ที่นั่งอยู่ ต้องคลาน ๆ
ขณะที่ผู้อื่นกำลังสนทนากันอยู่นั้น เราควร ๆ
I have been told that it can be seen as showing present continuous tense, but I just tried the กายบฏิบัติ example but added นั้น and it was not remarked.
I suspect that there is as much redundancy in Thai as there is in any language, is it worth cutting these rules to their basic meanings?
Can กำลัง be applied to a static verb like นั่ง?
Could we remove it from กำลังสนทนากัน?
Would either affect อยู่?

Re: สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 12:55 am
by Tgeezer
David and Bui wrote:Tgeezer,

The sentence "ผู้ดีไม่ควรใช้กิริยาล่วงเกินผู้อื่น", does this mean, "Gentlemen and ladies should not act in a manner which infringes on the rights or person of others." ? How about, "Ladies and gentlemen should not trespass into the space of others."


I don't think so David. All my books are for children because that is where Thai culture and language starts. So this book recommends how children should be ผู้ดี .
สมบัติ in the title is designed to grab the attention, everyone wants สมบัติ , although they may not know its grown up meaning, children can probably guess that it is a very good thing to possess.

At first I thought that 'Ladies and gentlemen was over the top so I wrote this: "So ผู้ดี is "polite people" or a "polite person". "Now Johnnie, we are polite people and polite people don't do things like that do they?"
This is the only way that I can put it into the English context so I would not say, 'ladies and gentlemen'."
Then I reflected on ladies and gentlemen and thought that it was equally appropriate in this context. But then, would we carry 'ladies and gentlemen' into adulthood as the epitome of politeness in the same way as 'polite people' might? but that's English :? I am not sure that ผู้ดี is carried over into adulthood either, are we both wrong?

By guessable words I mean almost anything will do because the verb is general, there is a list of offences:
Showing the soles of you feet, not pointing, getting too close, hands over people's heads etc. are all กิริยาล่วงเกินผู้อื่น .

I think that these are peculiar to Thailand, especially the feet pointing and showing the soles of the feet.
Could a 'two fingered salute' be described as กิริยาล่วงเกินผู้อิ่น do you think? That makes you correct mangkorn.

Re: สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 2:54 am
by David and Bui
Tgeezer,

I'm wondering whether there is a bit of Western cultural difference here. To me as an American, the definition of "gentleman" is "a man who is always polite and honest and considers other people’s needs". To an Englishman, the term might also mean, "a man from a family in a high social class." The same would apply for the word "lady".

Does the term ผู้ดี encompass both meanings?

Re: สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:47 am
by Tgeezer
David and Bui wrote:Tgeezer,

I'm wondering whether there is a bit of Western cultural difference here. To me as an American, the definition of "gentleman" is "a man who is always polite and honest and considers other people’s needs". To an Englishman, the term might also mean, "a man from a family in a high social class." The same would apply for the word "lady".

Does the term ผู้ดี encompass both meanings?

The RID has both good family and good manners.
I have heard policemen refer to people that they have arrested as gentleman when their behaviour is anything but mannerly, I want to scream at the television, He's this person, this man, this individual but never this gentleman! A lady of the night is common for a whore in UK at the police station though woman would do in my day.
I am reading on and shall post examples of นั้น to see if anyone can find a pattern but I suspect not.
People are often required by courts to recall a person's exact words, I read or heard somewhere recently that few people can do that. We all get the meaning but the actual words are not recalled, perhaps because they don't matter, up to now นั้น is not saying anything to me maybe it doesn't matter.

Re: สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:17 am
by mangkorn
How about just "good people" for ผู้ดี - especially if this is aimed at children?

(In Spanish, it is "bien educado" - which doesn't mean higher education, but rather "good manners/properly brought up.")

Re: สมบัติผู้ดี

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2017 2:00 am
by Tgeezer
mangkorn wrote:How about just "good people" for ผู้ดี - especially if this is aimed at children?

(In Spanish, it is "bien educado" - which doesn't mean higher education, but rather "good manners/properly brought up.")

I wouldn't disagree with the simplest possible definition because if the meaning of words is not in the context it is just a definition. I got polite because I had read the forward to the book.
Assuming ของ in the title, would คุณสมบัติผู้ดี be an equally good title?

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