ศาลาชุมนุม

[Thomas]

Yesterday evening I was listening a talk in-between my sister-in-law and a Thai friend. I understood that she told to her that once I had asked her whether she knows what "Phasa Thai K(r)adai" means - and she did not know this. Since they were talking about me I interfered in this talk and asked my sister in law (in German language) what I had asked her once because I had not understood well what she told to the friend.
Although my sister-in-law is speaking quite good German we were unable to find out what supposedly I've asked her 3 or 5 years ago.

I became curious... I went to my PC and tried to find out what "k(r)adai" could mean and found this on TL.com:

http://www.thai-language.com/dict: กระได ... stairway? May I have asked her, 5 years ago, how to translate "Led Zeppelin, stairway to heaven" into Thai? Did not make any sense to me. Or the steps (of development?) of Thai language? Did not make sense either.

Actually, she was not speaking about ก(ร)ะได, rather, "phasa Thai ก(ร)ะได".

Finally I found a clue: It is Thai without h! Tai kadai! Heurka!

After this idea I made a print out of ตระกูลภาษาไท-กะได for her.

With this print-out we agreed quickly that I had asked her several years ago whether she knows what ภาษาไท-กะได means.

Two questions, one directly adressed to the authors of this dictionary, the second adressed to all visitors:

1. At this page of the dic http://www.thai-language.com/id/207889 it is stated:

"ภาษาไท phaaM saaR thaiM Tai, a group of languages spoken in SE Asia, including Thai, Lao, and Shan
ภาษากะได phaaM saaR gaL daiM [Thai transcription of the foreign loanword] Kadai; a language family consisting of this group and the Thai group; of or pertaining to Kadai."

@the authors: I do not understand from which foreign language the term Kadai shall derive. Is this the Kadai language from which it was loaned for the Thai language --- if there is any Kadai language?

2. I've raised this question just 10 to 15 years ago and still have not found a good answer:

Why ไทย [ไท] is spelt with a yo yak in final position? What is precisely the etymology of this letter? See also, in Latin letters, Thai vs. Tai.
As far as I can recall, there is also a ไทย [ไทยะ] with PaliSanskrit ety. in the RID?! Anyway, already forgot the meaning of the latter term.
I guess that both terms, ไทย [ไท] vs. ไทย [ไทยะ], are not linked by ety.

I can recall that I came accross this question just more than 10 years ago since it occured while I was learning akson Thai in a school at Cologne, and the teacher explained that after sara ai mai malai and muan a final consonant is not allowed. I asked, for a better understanding of the rule, why in ไทย the sara ai mai malai is followed by a final consonant, namely the yo yak.

Compare the problem also with [ไท]=[ทัย], which is per se the "rule" that sara ai mai malai isn't followed by a final consonant because the "spoken" final consonant is already in the spelt letter sara ai mai malai.

My question 2 is an etymological one: Where the yo yak in ไทย [ไท] comes from?

[David and Bui]

From Wikipedia:

"ตระกูลภาษาไท-กะได (อังกฤษ: Tai–Kadai languages) หรือรู้จักกันในนาม กะได (Kadai), ขร้าไท (Kradai) หรือ ขร้า-ไท (Kra–Dai) เป็นตระกูลภาษาของภาษาที่มีเสียงวรรณยุกต์ที่พบในเอเชียตะวันออกเฉียงใต้และตอนใต้ของประเทศจีน ในช่วงแรก ตระกูลภาษาไท-กะไดเคยถูกกำหนดให้เป็นอยู่ในตระกูลภาษาจีน-ทิเบต แต่ปัจจุบันได้แยกมาเป็นอีกตระกูลภาษาหนึ่ง และยังมีผู้เห็นว่าตระกูลภาษาไท-กะไดนี้มีความสัมพันธ์กับตระกูลภาษาออสโตรนีเซียน โดยอยู่ในกลุ่มภาษาที่เรียกว่า "ออสโตร-ไท" หรือจัดเป็นตระกูลภาษาใหญ่ออสตริก"

For more see https://th.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E0%B8%95 ... 4%E0%B8%94

[Glenn Slayden]

"Tai-Kadai" is the technical name of a linguistic family of languages. As on obscure term-of-art in linguistics, It's a bit surprising if you overheard lay people using it. For example, how many native English speakers know that their language is Indo-European family?

A key reference on the Tai-Kadai language family is called, not surprisingly "The Tai-Kadai Langugages" by Diller, Edmondson, and Luo. Again, a hefty hardcover volume containing a collection of technical studies that would probably hold limited interest for most language learners.

[Thomas]

@David: What you quoted is the print out I made for my sister-in-law; see

... Heurka!

After this idea I made a print out of ตระกูลภาษาไท-กะได for her.

With this print-out we agreed quickly that I had asked her several years ago whether she knows what ภาษาไท-กะได means.

...

Thank you!

@Glenn: I agree that I'm a lay person as to linguistics although I know a little bit about the Indo-European theory of linguists ... at school I heard from this theory, however, in the terms of "Indogermanische Sprachen". About 40 years after this terminology was teached to me, however, if I would be asked for I would disagree with the German Wikipedia and would suggest, rather, to use the term "Indoeuropäische Sprachen" for Wikipedia means...

Since I'm (as a "doctor" for humans) not so much a lay person as to the species Homo sapiens or, following another theory, sub-species Homo sapiens sapiens I came across the funny problem, while reading your comment, how to write Homo neanderthaliensis (or Homo sapiens neanderthaliensis) in Thai ... letters, or language?!

Of note, besides Wikipedia (นีแอนเดอร์ทาล) I found also a (slightly differing) suggestion at thai-language dot com (see นีแอนเดอธัล). Since I've seen several times that the 'Th' in my first name is officially rendered Thai with a tho thong (ธ) I like slightly more the suggestion of thailanguage (compared to the Thai Wikipedia).

Anyway and anyhow ... The etymology both of นีแอนเดอธัล and ภาษากะได within the limits of http://www.thai-language dot com will be very difficult to clarify for very similar reasons.

I hope you can agree at least with the last statement

[Glenn Slayden]

I'm not certain if the preferred pronunciation in English is

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niː ʔɛːn dɤː tʰɔːl

vs.

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niː ʔɛːn dɤː dɑl

. I think I've heard both, perhaps with the latter more in recent decades, or from those seeking to sound more erudite.

[Thomas]

I'm not certain if the preferred pronunciation in English is

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niː ʔɛːn dɤː tʰɔːl

vs.

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niː ʔɛːn dɤː dɑl

. I think I've heard both, perhaps with the latter more in recent decades, or from those seeking to sound more erudite.

Those seeking to sound more erudite, what they want to express?

That they know the term dale for valley?

Or eventually that the term dollar has some etymologicial roots in Jáchymov via (Joachims-)thal-er?

No clue. Honestly.

If I listen to sound files for the English term thaler I hear an aspirated t, i.e. no d, no to tao, and no English th. The corrsponding high/standard German term is, since the spelling reform as of 1901, Taler, der. The sound is the same as in my given name Thomas, i.e. an aspirated t of the version ถ, ท, or ธ. Current German language, sadly enough, has not the sound of to tao.

The name of the Neanderthal Museum in Mettmann is in English, Dutch, and German with th. I've no problem to pronounce the German version of the name of the museum. The human species, as a female, is spelt/-ed in current standard German 'Neandertalerin, die'.

The German version of the home page of the Neanderthal Museum contains a spelling mistake ("...vor mehr als 160 Jahren der Neanderthaler gefunden...").

But a home page is made for means of advertising and not for getting a good school grade.