ศาลาชุมนุม

[Mind]

Hi all,

as most of you, i have problems with hearing and speaking the tones. I had my first vacation in LOS last november and since then, i learned the alphabet with the tone rules. Learning thai alphabet in 60 minutes, youtube and this side helped me alot. But i now stoped learning, because i found the theory about natural language growth that is practiced at auathai.com.

For me it is totaly logic, that adults butcher their possibility to speak another language fluently with speaking to early. Especially with tonal languages. I learnd a little bit of survivalthai and realize that the pronunciation i learnd sticks, even if it is wrong. And many things i learned are wrong, because i can't hear the tones and so i can't correct me before it sinks deep in my brain. Being able to read helps alot, but it is not sufficient and i think that speaking to early will prevent me from learning to speak thai like a native. Has someone likewise observations? (And yes, i know that there are exceptions from the norm.)

[pensive]

You can't stand still or you will not grow. Yes, bad habits are learned, but it is necessary to make these mistakes in order to learn.

I used to think I could pronounce the rising tone. Now I think I can't. That is probably progress. There are many words that I now do not know the tones for. I didn't feel that before, so maybe I'm making progress.

Maybe you are making excuses for not learning. But making mistakes is better in the long run to making excuses.

[Mind]

You can't stand still or you will not grow. Yes, bad habits are learned, but it is necessary to make these mistakes in order to learn.

Why are these mistakes necessary? The statement was, that it is probably better to avoid these mistakes because they sink in your brain and it will be nearly impossible to get rid of them after you are used to making them. If you start learning the language with a long listening phase where you are not speaking, you can avoid this mistakes by start speaking after being able to hear you mistakes. So you can correct them before they sink in your brain.

Maybe you are making excuses for not learning. But making mistakes is better in the long run to making excuses.

Where did i say that stoped learning altogether? I only stoped learning the old way and now trying the natural language growth way because it sounds logic for me.

Here is a video that explains NLG:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Vg2Eh2L ... p_play_all

In youtube they have a few lessons from auathai and for me it sounds like it is a much better way to learn languages. And yes, i already read that many learners are hostile against this method.

[pensive]

Why are these mistakes necessary? The statement was, that it is probably better to avoid these mistakes because they sink in your brain and it will be nearly impossible to get rid of them after you are used to making them. If you start learning the language with a long listening phase where you are not speaking, you can avoid this mistakes by start speaking after being able to hear you mistakes. So you can correct them before they sink in your brain.

Well, that's the theory. I don't think it works, but we all learn in different ways, so if it works for you then good luck!

[Mind]

Why are these mistakes necessary? The statement was, that it is probably better to avoid these mistakes because they sink in your brain and it will be nearly impossible to get rid of them after you are used to making them. If you start learning the language with a long listening phase where you are not speaking, you can avoid this mistakes by start speaking after being able to hear you mistakes. So you can correct them before they sink in your brain.

Well, that's the theory. I don't think it works, but we all learn in different ways, so if it works for you then good luck!

Can you tell me why you think that it will not work? I watched the lessons that they have in youtube and i learned already alot. I can't see why it would not work if i do it longer bevor i speak.

Here are two blogs from people that did it:
http://daninbangkok.blogspot.com/2006_1 ... chive.html
http://bakunin-learns-thai.blogspot.com/

[pensive]

Well, I think we have to distinguish between children and adults. Children can pick up the sounds very well and somehow form the correct associations, though this may be because their teachers are more tolerant and are prepared to repeat phrases more often.

Adults, though, tend to have a very complex perceptual framework which is not very tolerant of new methods (I think - I am not an expert in this area). So the features of a new language are not taken up as easy and not as completely. Also, they generally get less attention in the process. Adults also appreciate knowing a bit about what they are learning.

I think I heard about some technique where you don't talk for, what, 160 hours? Is that the method you describe. It's a long time to be silent.

One of the posters here posted a document about how to teach language. The main point was to simply experience it without thinking too much about it. Adults tend to try to correct themselves, but the document said that, with children, parents hardly ever correct them, and the attempts at correction are not methodical. So, even though children make mistakes in learning their language, they are generally not corrected and they find the correct way by themselves.

Anyway, as I said, I'm no expert. If you enjoy what you are doing then keep on going.

[Mind]

Well, I think we have to distinguish between children and adults.

Have we?

Children can pick up the sounds very well and somehow form the correct associations,

But i think that adults can do this too. The childs need to learn the sounds also. They lock, listen and guess whats going on. I can this too. But i can do more than this. The question is, if this "more" is helpfull or hurt for learning a language fluently.

though this may be because their teachers are more tolerant and are prepared to repeat phrases more often.

Than the adults have teachers that teach the wrong way?

Adults, though, tend to have a very complex perceptual framework which is not very tolerant of new methods (I think - I am not an expert in this area).

If you never learned another language, every method is new. I don't see the problem to learn with a new method. If i want to learn something new, i look what methods exists and pick the method that sounds best for me. And i never learned a language which is tonal. So it is something completly new to me.
I only know, that many people have really big problems with the tones, even after many years. So maybe, they learn the language the wrong way. But with a long listening period, the problems with the tones seems to be much less. So if you invest a little more in the beginning, you earn more in the long run.

So the features of a new language are not taken up as easy and not as completely. Also, they generally get less attention in the process. Adults also appreciate knowing a bit about what they are learning.

And maybe, this is an error that prevent most adults to learn an other language fluently.

I think I heard about some technique where you don't talk for, what, 160 hours? Is that the method you describe. It's a long time to be silent.

They talking about being silent for 600 to 1000 hours. Yes, this is a long time, but if it help you to speak a language fluently, than it is a piece of cake. And if you living in LOS, this is a period from 6 month.

If you enjoy what you are doing then keep on going.

This is a very importent key.

Here is a lesson from the first level on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIqIrEG6 ... laynext=15

[David and Bui]

Khun Mind,

Please tell us for the record what your relationship is to the school your are promoting. Are you being paid for these postings or are you reflecting your own perspective as a student?

I think that the readers of this forum have a right to know if you have a business relationship with the school.

Thank you and thanks for sharing your experiences.

[Mind]

Khun Mind,

Please tell us for the record what your relationship is to the school your are promoting. Are you being paid for these postings or are you reflecting your own perspective as a student?

I think that the readers of this forum have a right to know if you have a business relationship with the school.

Thank you and thanks for sharing your experiences.

Hi David,

i am from germany and was in november the first time in LOS. I have no relationship with the school and a month ago i did'nt even know that they exist. But i like to learn new thinks and want to learn the thai language. I just started to learn the language and can already understand the alphabet. But i am also interesting in brain research and the theory from natural language growth sounds logic for me. I know that if you learn something a long time, it is hard to let it go. And if you learn something wrong, you probably stick with it forever.
An example from a differend field. Playing shooter on the pc. I learned playing with a tastatur and mouselayout that is differend from the standard config from today. I tried to change my config a few times but every time it feels wrong and i am much slower with the new layout, even after years of trying. I programmed my brain to run backwards with the second mousebutton and this will feel right forever.
And i think it is the same with languages. I have some "survivalthai" phrases that i learned with false pronounciations. Like ระวังนะ เดี๋ยวจะอ้วน ra wang na diaao ja uaan. I am pretty sure, that if i speak more thai without hearing the tones, i programm my brain with many wrong tones and it will be nearly impossible to get rid of them after knowing better. The theory of natural language growth match my expericence and what i know about how the brain works. This is the reason why i change my learning stil and stop speaking till i am better in understanding spoken thai. And i think the problems that nearly all western learners have with the thai language is good evidence that i should probably try a differend learning method.

But next year, i will probably be a student of auathai, because my next vacation is planed for bangkok to learn the language in this school.

[Tgeezer]

But next year, i will probably be a student of auathai, because my next vacation is planed for bangkok to learn the language in this school.

It looks very good to me, I was at the AUA when Marvin Brown first introduced this method and it was revolutionary then. People who learn generally want to express their inner thoughts to Thais(a bit like a forum )and need to know it all yesterday. That was the main problem with this method; it takes a long time, in the beginning and progress seems slow from their point of view and value for money - non existent. I hope you give it plenty of time, the video is great and the teachers seem lovely. Watching it I wanted to rush ahead and make comparisons with English but I am not a teacher so am sure that it is the right way if you have time.