ศาลาชุมนุม

[David and Bui]

Why is แซ่บ spelled traditionally with a ไม้เอก? Is this the offical spelling or a regionalism?

[Glenn Slayden]

I think it was simply an error on this website. I checked three sources and none listed the spelling แซ่บ. I changed it to แซบ. Thanks for pointing it out.

Glenn

[David and Bui]

Glenn,

I believe that this is not an error on this web-site. The Domnern-Sathiengpong dictionary shows the ไม้เอก as an alternative spelling.

In Phuket Central Festival there is a restaurant selling Northeastern food called แซ่บ with the name in in a big yellow sign, complete with the ไม้เอก. (Unfortunately, the food is way over-priced and the flavor underwhelming.)

There is also a movie by that name. See http://www.movieseer.com/MovieProfileBil.asp?moID=5765&Channel=1 The movie in English is called "Zapp" and the heroine, "Zap." The English synopsis is:

"When their calm apartment turned to a place of crime that misleads innocent teenagers to the wrong way, Zab and her friend Kwan, who used to peacefully reside in the apartment, team up against the dirty circle and bring back happiness to everyone in the apartment."

Wow! I can't wait!

Maybe this is a vestigial or regional spelling technique incorporating Lao spelling rules. Just guessing here.

[Glenn Slayden]

I'll enter it as an alternate spelling but it would be nice to find another source.

As for the character named "Zapp" and her eponymous movie, is she associated with "delicious" in the movie? If not then it might just be a name which can be spelled any way.

The interesting thing in this case is that the tone mark doesn't change the tone, right? It's falling in either case.

Glenn

[David and Bui]

And there in lies the conundrum: the pronunciation is the same either way. Maybe it is like the exclamation point in Tony the Tiger's "Great!" to emphasize how delicious the food really is.

Perhaps one of our correspondents from the Northeast can enlighten us as to this usage. Its got to be something!

[David and Bui]

Here is another example, this time from a restaurant review:

'ผ่านไปผ่านมาแถวถนนรัชดาฯ ย่านคนกลางคืนมานาน แต่เพิ่งรู้ว่ามีร้านอาหารอีสานรสชาติแซ่บหลายมาตั้งอยู่แค่ปลายจมูก

"แซ่บวัน" เปิดขายอาหารอีสาน ไม่ว่าจะเป็นตำซั่ว ส้มตำ ต้มแซ่บ ลาบ น้ำตก มา 45 ปี แล้ว เจ้าของเป็นสองสามีภรรยาคนจังหวัดยโสธร'

(www.matichon.co.th/adm/tour/template1.php?idn=&selectid=2308&sid=&select)

[Nan]

The official spelling of this word is " แซบ " with high tone which if you listen to northeastern people or Laos say this word you would hear it is exactly pronounced with high tone.

But แซ่บ with a ไม้เอก, falling tone, is somewhat slightly distorted by the pronunciation of people in other areas and then it has been used widely as if it is the correct spelling.

Another set of words which always confused native Thai speakers is คะ ค่ะ which sometimes it's pronounced sound like ขะ. We can use them correctly when we speak. But it's so confusing if we have to do the writing. If you read on other Thai forums you would see people always make mistake about them.

[David and Bui]

Sorry, Nan, I am still confused. You wrote:

The official spelling of this word is " แซบ " with high tone which if you listen to northeastern people or Laos say this word you would hear it is exactly pronounced with high tone.

But แซ่บ with a ไม้เอก, falling tone, is somewhat slightly distorted by the pronunciation of people in other areas and then it has been used widely as if it is the correct spelling.


I thought that the ไม้เอก would redundant with respect to pronunciation of this word. It appears that the rules would say that without the ไม้เอก the tone would be falling; the addition of the ไม้เอก would not change the sound.

If the Northeastern tone is truly high, then would not the proper tone mark be ไม้ตรี? Personally, I have never heard a pronunciation other than falling, but then, I live in the South (where if the word were Southern, the pronunciation would be with a rising tone).

Sorry for the continued confusion; thanks for your help.

[montrii]

Hi, all, sorry I've been so absent for so long. Anyhow David asked me to respond to this แซบ แซ่บ thing, as I lived 2 years in the Northeast (Nongkhai & Sakol) when I was 21 and quite impressionable, so soaked up a lot of Iisaan/Lao, my friends were quite adamant that I be able to understand what they were saying. About the spelling, I can't really shed any light, as I've also seen it spelled both ways; but it seems to me that using the mai ek is just flat wrong, as that combination with the dead syllable just doesnt exist in the Thai spelling rules. But on the pronunciation I have to disagree with Nan, sorry, Nan. But I lived with those people for a long time and never heard anyone say SAEP with a high tone, it's always a falling tone. Maybe they do that in the North? But anyhow not in Nongkhai or Sakol Nakhorn, or Luang Phrabang or Vientiane, for that matter. It's really a falling tone.

[Nan]

David, sorry, it's my mistake.

I thought that the ไม้เอก would redundant with respect to pronunciation of this word. It appears that the rules would say that without the ไม้เอก the tone would be falling; the addition of the ไม้เอก would not change the sound.

Word which started with low class consonant + dead syllabel, short vowel, well don't mention about rising tone mark which in grammar they can have it but someone might not agree with, there are two sounds

- No tone mark, it has high tone sound.

- With low tone mark, it has falling tone sound

Word which started with low class consonant + dead syllabel, long vowel, there also are two sounds but different tone mark

- No tone mark, it has falling tone.

- With falling tone mark, it has high tone.

So, from these rules you might see why people always confused by them.

Some words which spell by แ- and เ- with final consonant when put low tone mark on it, the word will have short sound instead of long as the vowel should be, the same as this word "แซบ". So, when I tried to check the tone of this word, it's possible that I mixed them up. I pronounced it short then I thought it's from short vowel, that's why this mistake has happened. I think this might happen to others as well.

Thanks Montrii for joining. The word does have falling tone by official spelling and grammar rule.

Sorry for confusing you, David.