ศาลาชุมนุม

[macmiller]

I just got back from Bangkok taking the Thai Government P6 (6th Grade) examination. It is given once a year in December, but applicants must register in October. This year there we about 200 foreigners taking the exam, about 1/2 Japenese and the other 1/2 farang.

There are 5 parts to the exam - which runs from 9AM to about 2PM as follows; essay (1 hr), letter (45 minutes), dictation (1/2 hr), comprehension (1/2 hr) and reading individually to a 'judge'.

This year the essay was things that I like in Thailand and the letter - convincing friend from foreign country to come invest capital with reasons why. The hardest part of the exam was the comphension because there were 4 stories with multiple choice anwsers, but not enough time to complete (at least for me). On the reading the judge told me I got 70% which is pretty good. Even though Thai is phonentic, I find when reading that if I don't know the word and need to sound it out it will come out sounding not correct, which corresponds to the 70% - there we about 3 words I didn't know and pronounced oddly.

I feel pretty good about taking the exam. I have been studying Thai for about 1 1/2 years which may seem like a long time but is about what it takes, from my own experience and talking to others. After passing the P6 I feel I can effectivly read, write and communicate, but will continue to study a bit more on listening to news on the radio and reading the newspaper. The newspaper uses a lot of slang and sayings and at least for me needs to be studied separately. As far as listening to the news on the radio, it is a good test of ones understanding of the thai language since the newscasters speak really clearly, but the pace is very very quick. I find now I can listen and understand about 80% but sometimes I get thrown off and if I need to ask assistance, ie, is talking about this?

One other note about learning Thai langauge is I found writing essays quite challenging. First off, there is a different style for writing than for reading. I guess to main difficultly is sentence construction, yes you can say Thai doesn't have the grammical complications of say Spanish, but there are just hundreds of little details to learn more.

Anyway, the upshot of this was that my experience with teachers on teaching essay writing was that some had a tendency to cross out maybe an entire sentence and say 'I wouldn't say it like this, here is how I would say it'. This turned out not to be very helpful, a more helpful approach in my opinion is when the teacher says, 'I see what you are trying to say, here is how you could say it correctly - then add to that, here is how I would say it'.

I would be interested in hearing about any ones else's experiences in taking the p6 exam, experiences, feedback and learning techniques.

[mrentoul]

I would be interested in hearing about any ones else's experiences in taking the p6 exam, experiences, feedback and learning techniques

One day I'd like to try language schools again. I went to one a few years ago but didn't like it so quit.

You won't get many people offering tips on learning or the experience of speaking Thai. I search in vain for these things every day. Here, a couple of young people (farang) answer posts, translate and so on, but...what else?

There is no ''else''. I suspect they rarely if ever engage in the language. Hardly anyone here uses it as a tool to communicate. If they did, they would soon get sick of answering all those posts which start with: ''please translate this...'''

They would be more forthcoming about the experience of using Thai, of thinking about a language which is not their own, of pronouncing it, of the joys of breaking through the sound barrier, and so on.

Instead, we get ego, ego, ego...someone told me years before I came here that language groupies were an odd bunch. It's true.

Learning a language is a full-time job, but no one wants to talk about it. Why?

Let me guess. I suspect most people here haven't heard enough Thai to understand what people are saying. They are too scared to have a go. They treat Thai as an academic interest, or they think displaying their ''learning'' is an easy way to impress.

Learning? Mmm. I came across someone at a rival site the other day who said he ''learnt'' Thai at language schools. He used the past tense, as if he had conquered it already. In truth, there is no ''learnt''. We will be at it forever.

A small test. Why do you learn Thai? Why do you take exams? We should be able to answer these questions.

Personally, I can't imagine why anyone would sit an exam...they are horrible things. I learn Thai to communicate, but to speak at a reasonable level I have to keep at it, every day. Everyone has their own reasons for learning, but once again you are unlikely to hear about them on this board.

Few westerners can work here legally in jobs that earn a reasonable wage. When I consider this I ask myself why people bother to learn a language they will hardly ever use.

I imagine it's because their last visit was so enchanting they just couldn't help themselves - they just had to hit the language books.

But it doesn't seem quite real to me. None of it does.

[Glenn Slayden]

A small test. Why do you learn Thai? Why do you take exams?

I can't answer for macmiller, but one obvious reason is for the structure and imposed discipline that a school and testing environment provides. For example, knowing oneself well enough to know that this type of structure will help you achieve your goals.

We're all not perfect and we all must find our own way towards the goals that we set. Who wouldn't like to don that plug-in from the Matrix film where you can learn to fly a helicopter (or anything) in five seconds? That's the thing that...

doesn't seem quite real to me

I would be wary of criticizing anybody for their way of approaching a problem. If you want to start, start with criticizing me; I perfectly fit the description of the "loser" you portray in your message. Yes, I'm "too scared to have a go;" yes, it's an "academic interest;" yes I don't understand what people are saying most of the time--so I just nod and smile while Thais patronize me with jokes about how my Thai is better than their own.

Yet I set out to do something, and I built this website over the last seven years, and it has been modestly successful. No, I'm not doing it for anybody but myself, and that's as it should be. It's my way of learning about the language in my own time. If it "doesn't seem quite real to [you]" then I'm not sure why I should care about that.

Here, a couple of young people (farang) answer posts, translate and so on, but...what else?

I never decided what the site was supposed to be for anyone else. It is what it is. If you have other ideas, please either present them constructively, or let me know the URL of your site when you're done building it.

Please don't take this personally, as I don't wish to launch another flame war such as we saw in another topic recently. I just wanted to point out, since you've been a friend on this site since nearly the start, that I hope the site will be a place where learning and discussion can be encouraged, not quashed.

Glenn

[mrentoul]

I hope the site will be a place where learning and discussion can be encouraged, not quashed.

I don't want to discourage anyone from learning. I'd like to see more talk here about the learning process, not less. We get so little of it.

If you want to start, start with criticizing me; I perfectly fit the description of the "loser" you portray in your message.

I am not interested in disparaging anyone's efforts, Glenn. As a matter of fact, I don't think you fit the description, such as it is: you enjoy speaking and benefit from it. You have said so yourself.

Here, a couple of young people (farang) answer posts, translate and so on, but...what else?

This was not a comment about your site.

They would be more forthcoming about the experience of using Thai, of thinking about a language which is not their own, of pronouncing it, of the joys of breaking through the sound barrier, and so on.

When's the last time anyone talked about this stuff?

Isn't it fundamental to what we are doing?

I suggest we get out, speak more, and think less.

[Richard Wordingham]

Everyone has their own reasons for learning, but once again you are unlikely to hear about them on this board.

There are quite a few people here who are learning Thai because they love a Thai; in several cases, the Thai's English is worse than their Thai - I was once in that category.

Nowadays my chief motive for learning Thai is to comunicate with my wife's relatives. However, it's got a long way to go before I can offer a suggestion on how to put a hub cap back on without resort to gesturing.

They treat Thai as an academic interest, or they think displaying their ''learning'' is an easy way to impress.

I confess I do have an academic interest in Thai. I find vocabulary tedious, and am more interested in patterns. Some may display their learning to impress, but I share such as I have:
(1) to 'trade' - i.e. in the hope that if I share information, so will others. That's one of the principles behind the correction forms.
(2) because I have a useful fact that is not as widely known as it should be.
(3) sometimes to help, but only when someone is in severe trouble or I am very sure of my facts.

Richard.

[mrentoul]

I confess I do have an academic interest in Thai

Same here. I love patterns and words. Having to look something up repeatedly before it sinks in - that's tedious, I agree.
In the main, few westerners around me are prepared to have a go. I work in an office where most of the westerners rarely speak Thai, because they can't be bothered learning it or are too scared. Some have been here 30 years or more and won't lift a finger.
How they survive if they can't speak is beyond me. Their wives must get sick of doing everything for them.
One or two others regard the language as something to be conquered or colonised. I hate that attitude too!

[AgentJ]

I study Thai because:

1. I love languages. Thai isn't the only language I've studied. I've also studied French, Danish, and to a lesser extent, Chinese. None of them are fresh in my mind because I don't use them everyday, but if I suddenly found myself in France, or Denmark it wouldn't be long before I could get around without using English. Studying languages teaches me a lot about how people think when they communicate, what I try to communicate when speaking English, and what a huge and inseperable part culture plays in communication.

2. I love Thai culture. I love Thai food. I would like to learn Thai boxing. I like Thai music. Being able to speak the language gets you on the "inside" so to speak. One is no longer just a curious bystander, but has the opportunity to become a participant. I think that learning the language has deepened my appreciation for all of these things and that appreciation, in turn, causes me to want to learn the language even more. So, it's kind of a reciprocal relationship.

3. The more I study and understand Thai, the more beautiful I find it. Spoken Thai has a lovely rhythmic quality. Thai sings beautifully, the script is beautiful, etc...

4. I can't get any practical experience using Thai because I don't live in Thailand. So, I study my materials and do the best I can on my next opportunity to go there.

[mrentoul]

[Being able to speak the language gets you on the "inside" so to speak. One is no longer just a curious bystander, but has the opportunity to become a participant

What a terrific post. Thank-you.

[Juay]

I would be interested in hearing about any ones else's experiences in taking the p6 exam, experiences, feedback and learning techniques.

macmiller, congrats on the exam. I wish I could offer some learning techniques, but I have no idea how to study for those exams. Some of my friends took the P6, and before doing so they spent 1-2 months in an intensive class dedicated to helping students pass the exam.

but will continue to study a bit more on listening to news on the radio...

I fully agree with you. I find that a lot of people who are learning Thai (even those who passed the P6) are really good at reading and writing, but aren't as skilled in listening and speaking.

For listening, I would watch a lot of Thai TV and listen to a lot of Thai radio. I still do that, only over the internet. When I watch Thai TV, I don't watch news programs (With the exception of the entertainment news, I don't think I'm ready for it yet), instead I watch a lot of comedy, game shows, and even some entertainment news.

I used to have major problems making out words in Thai dubbed movies and cartoons. That is, I could make out what was being said in Thai movies, but never foreign movies that were re-dubbed into Thai. It was just something about the way they spoke. So I bought some Thai read-along books for kids (the story books that come with cassette tapes), and I would listen to those. When I first listened to them, I couldn't make out a lot of what was being said, but fortunately I had the book, so I could actually see what the people were saying. I would listen to the cassettes all the time, and eventually my ear be came "in-tune" and so now I can usually make out the words in dubbed films and cartoons.

For speaking and conversation, I will actually record myself speaking Thai. For example, I'll have a recording of someone reading a story in Thai, and then I'll read the same story into a microphone. In doing that, I can pinpoint exactly where my pronounciation weakpoints are through comparison, and within about 3 or 4 sessions, I can correct those weakpoints them. Trust me, it works. At least for me it does. Fortunately, I'm surrounded by Thai people, it's really easy to get a copy of someone reading an article from a magazine or short story, but even if you can't there are still many web resources and books w/ tapes ("45 Thai stories," for example) to help you.

[montrii]

Wow. I just joined this site today, and already i've posted a bunch. Really, I'm not like this, usually. But I kind of felt I had to answermacmiller's post, or maybe more, mrentoul's response to it. First of all, m, I think it's wonderful you've (mcmiller) taken the P 6 exam. Your description made me want to take it, too.
I also want to say, in response to mrentoul, that I think Glenn has done a great job with this site, and though he may have done it for himself, it's doing a lot for other people, too. I don't know if the characterization of most users as uncommitted "language groupies" has any truth to it or not--haven't been here long enough. But I speak Thai every chance I get, and when I'm in Thailand that's almost all I ever use, and I read and write (incl a LOT of e-mail) every day. My impression is that the other posters I've read are similarly involved. Also, everyone so far seems friendly and helpful. Anyhow, for me . . . I learned Thai in the Peace Corps, living where nobody spoke more than a few words of English, & became completely enchanted with it, and want to spend as much time speaking it as possible. I also have an academic side, and am interested in understanding how language works, and the contrast between English and Thai is so sharp that it gives me a lot of insight into human communication. As for the test . . . well, tests are a way some people find useful as a measuring stick. Some people don't need them or find them useful. I see both sides.
I'd be happy to offer anyone tips on learning Thai, so maybe that can be a function of this site. It seems to me that's what others are doing.
As far as being "real" goes, I rarely feel more real or alive than when I'm immersed in the Thai language or culture, or hangin out with the Thais. I know it ain't for everybody, but that's honestly me.
If it grabs ya, go for it. Thanks for your ears (eyes).